5-HTP (5-Hydroxytryptophan or oxitriptan) is an amino acid that is naturally produced in your body. 5-HTP is synthesized from the amino acid tryptophan which we get from food.
5-HTP is the immediate precursor of serotonin. And as a nootropic and dietary supplement, 5-HTP is popular with those who advocate its effectiveness in treating depression. Along with a number of other serotonin-related diseases.
But using 5-HTP for treating depression and anxiety is not supported by science. The research is contrary to how 5-HTP is viewed by many, including medical doctors.
When we dig into the research, we find that 5-HTP may be contraindicated for depression in those whom marketers advocate its use.[i]
We’re all for boosting neurotransmitter levels and optimizing cognitive performance here at Nootropics Expert®. But now and again we run into a nootropic or dietary supplement that may be popular. But also may be a particularly bad idea.
We’re going to get to the bottom of how 5-HTP works in your brain in this review. We’ll examine why it’s critical for brain health. And reasons why you may want to find another way to boost serotonin levels in your brain.
5-HTP helps:
- Anxiety & Depression. 5-HTP is synthesized into serotonin in brain cells. Elevating levels of serotonin can help relieve the symptoms of anxiety and depression.
- Neurotransmitters. 5-HTP is a necessary ingredient for serotonin synthesis which boosts mood and social behavior, improves memory, regulates appetite and digestion, sleep, sexual desire and function.
- Brain Optimization. A critical balance of the primary neurotransmitters serotonin and dopamine are needed for the highly optimized brain. When these neurotransmitters are not in balance it affects mood, memory, cognition, decision-making, sexual desire, and a host of other critical life functions.
Table of Contents
Overview
5-HTP (5-Hydroxytryptophan or oxitriptan) is an amino acid that’s synthesized from the essential amino acid tryptophan.
Tryptophan is hydroxylated by tryptophan hydroxylase to 5-HTP (5-hydroxytryptophan), then decarboxylated to serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine or 5-HT).[ii]
Tryptophan → 5-HTP → serotonin
80-90% of your body’s serotonin is made in your intestines. But serotonin cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. So all the serotonin that your brain needs has to be made within the brain. This is where 5-HTP comes in…
5-HTP crosses the blood-brain barrier more readily than tryptophan. And gets synthesized into serotonin at a faster rate than from tryptophan.[iii]
As a neurotransmitter, serotonin influences directly and indirectly, the majority of brain cells. So if you want to boost serotonin in your brain, some find that supplementing with 5-HTP is better than taking tryptophan.
Tryptophan, which your body uses to make 5-HTP, can be found in turkey, chicken, milk, potatoes, pumpkin, sunflower seeds, turnip and collard greens, and seaweed.
5-HTP as a nootropic supplement is a naturally occurring amino acid derived from seed pods of Griffonia simplicifolia, found in West and Central Africa. 5-HTP content in extracts of this plant vary from 2 – 20.83% (from seeds obtained in Ghana).[iv]
How does 5-HTP work in the Brain?
5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin. The neurotransmitter serotonin plays a role in sleep, appetite, learning & memory, mood, and sexual function.
When tryptophan’s role in converting to 5-HTP for boosting serotonin doesn’t work efficiently, the result is often depression, chronic headache and insomnia.
An open-label trial was conducted in Italy to determine the efficacy of using 5-HTP in young subjects with high levels of “romantic stress”.
Serotonin has been linked to human romantic attachment. So researchers in this study set out to determine brain levels of Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor (BDNF) and serotonin in relation to changes in romantic stress during the study.
15 healthy subjects (mean age 23.3 years) who had a “romantic breakup” took part in the study. Participants received 60 mg of Griffonia simplicifolia extract containing 12.8 mg 5-HTP daily for 6 weeks.
The subjects were evaluated for BDNF and serotonin levels at the beginning of the study, at 3 weeks and then again at the end of the 6-week trial.
The scientists observed significant improvements in romantic stress scores from weeks 0 through 3. So far, 5-HTP seems to be working. But no further improvement was seen from weeks 3 through 6. Even though the young people had significantly higher levels of BDNF and serotonin.[v]
More Involved in Depression and Stress than Serotonin
This “romantic breakup” study is a classic illustration of why using 5-HTP alone to treat depression and stress may not work. And if it does work, why it may not work for long.
Depression is often more than simple serotonin dysfunction. Depression can also be associated with catecholamine dysfunction, including dopamine and/or norepinephrine. Or a combination of serotonin and catecholamine dysfunction.
When you take 5-HTP alone, you are also depleting dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine. Synthesis of serotonin from 5-HTP, and dopamine from L-DOPA is catalyzed by the same enzyme, L-aromatic amino acid decarboxylase (AAAD).
Dopamine and serotonin precursor supplementation must be taken in proper balance. Because when you use only 5-HTP, it dominates dopamine at the AAAD enzyme synthesis level.
Blocking dopamine synthesis at the AAAD enzyme through competitive inhibition will lead to depletion of dopamine and the rest of the catecholamines.[vi]
Going back to our Italian study of young people dealing with “romantic stress”, the subjects stopped responding to 5-HTP in the 2nd half of the study. Likely because their catecholamines became depleted through continuous 5-HTP supplementation.
Studies have found that when dopamine is depleted enough, 5-HTP will no longer function.[vii]
Catecholamine Dysfunction Affects More Than Just Depression
When catecholamine neurotransmitter levels (dopamine and/or norepinephrine) influence depression, supplementing with 5-HTP alone is not the way to go. Because you may deplete dopamine and norepinephrine, worsening the disease and its underlying cause.
But this contraindication is not exclusive to depression. It extends to all other diseases where catecholamine dysfunction has been implicated. Including ADHD[viii], obesity, anxiety, seasonal affective disorder (SAD), and Parkinson’s Disease.[ix]
How things go bad
Amino acid precursors of serotonin (i.e. 5-HTP) and dopamine (i.e. L-Tyrosine) work together during synthesis, metabolism and transport to the point that they function as one system.
When serotonin and dopamine are properly balanced, functions that are regulated only by serotonin, can be regulated by manipulating dopamine levels. And functions regulated only by dopamine in this balanced state can be regulated by manipulating serotonin.[x]
When you mess with this balance and improperly supplement with serotonin or dopamine precursors, you don’t get the desired effect of using that nootropic. And you increase the possibility of side effects.
If you supplement with only one precursor (i.e. 5-HTP to boost serotonin) that dominates the other system (i.e. dopamine synthesis), depletion of the dominated system will occur (i.e. depleted dopamine).
And if this effect is pronounced enough, you will not get the benefit you were aiming for when supplementing with the original precursor (i.e. 5-HTP).
A powerful example of this effect is in the management of Parkinson’s Disease where the effects of L-DOPA are no longer observed over time due to serotonin depletion.[xi]
Since serotonin and dopamine cannot cross the blood-brain barrier, the number of serotonin and dopamine molecules in the brain is a function of the amount of nutrients (amino acid precursors) that are available to be synthesized into new neurotransmitter molecules.
Optimizing brain function with minimal side effects is NOT a function of supplementing until you get sufficiently high amino acid levels. It’s a function of achieving the proper balance between serotonin and dopamine.
5-HTP benefits
5-HTP is absolutely critical for synthesis of serotonin in your brain. But supplementing with 5-HTP to boost serotonin does not work well.
Using 5-HTP to treat depression has had very little success over the last few decades of clinical trials and biohacking.
Integrating 5-HTP into your nootropic stack is much more complicated than simply adding some 5-HTP in order to boost serotonin.
5-HTP alone will not work for depression, or any other issue you’re dealing with involving the catecholamines (dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine) because of 5-HTP’s tendency to deplete those neurotransmitters.
5-HTP will boost serotonin in your brain.[xii] But 5-HTP must be carefully stacked with precursors for dopamine and norepinephrine or you risk making the situation worse.
You must avoid supplementing with only one of the serotonin or dopamine amino acid precursors. When amino acid precursors are not in balance, you end up with decreased effectiveness of that nootropic, increased side effects, and depletion of the non-dominant system.
How does 5-HTP feel?
Reactions to supplementing with 5-HTP vary considerably but the one consistent theme is initial feelings of well-being, better sleep, less need for sleep, improved mood, less social anxiety, lower appetite, improved tolerance for stress and improved cognitive function.
And after a couple of weeks of dosing 5-HTP – side effects begin. Serotonin overload results in dopamine and norepinephrine depletion.
Side effects include feelings of lethargy, depression, brain fog, stomach pain, and headaches. Worst case scenario is nausea, vomiting and even blacking out.
Neurohackers who report consistent success supplementing with 5-HTP stack it with B-Vitamins, a dopamine precursor like L-Tyrosine, and only use 5-HTP as needed.
Those who have a bad experience with 5-HTP from the start often have no idea why they’ve reacted badly. But an educated guess is their depression was catecholamine (dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine)-related. And boosting serotonin made their dopamine-related issues worse. Very quickly.
One huge word of WARNING: Do NOT take 5-HTP with any antidepressant medication. You put yourself in the very real danger of Serotonin Syndrome which can ultimately kill you.
5-HTP Clinical Research
5-HTP supplements are heavily marketed as a natural remedy for depression. But the science does not support using 5-HTP for depression. We have decades of clinical trials available. And there is no evidence of the efficacy in using 5-HTP for depression.
The Department of Public Health at the University of Queensland Medical School in Australia did a systematic review of literature dating from 1966 – 2000 for “5-HTP” and “depression”.
The researchers found 108 clinical studies of which only 2 studies, one with serotonin (5-HT) and one with L-Tryptophan for a total of 64 patients met sufficient quality criteria to be included. These studies suggest serotonin (5-HT) and L-Tryptophan are better than placebo at alleviating depression.
But the researchers noted “the small size of the studies, and the large number of inadmissible, poorly executed studies, cast doubt on the results from potential publication bias, and suggests that they are insufficiently evaluated to assess their effectiveness.”[xiii]
5-HTP for Fibromyalgia
A double-blind, placebo-controlled trial in Italy studied the efficacy of using 5-HTP in treating fibromyalgia symptoms.
50 patients with primary fibromyalgia syndrome were selected for this study. This 1990 study did not publish the amount of 5-HTP used. But the researchers found a significant improvement in fibromyalgia symptoms with only mild and transient side effects.[xiv]
5-HTP for Treatment of Depression
Insufficient activity of the neurotransmitters serotonin and norepinephrine is a central element of the model of depression most widely held by neurobiologists today.
In the late 1970’s and 1980’s, numerous studies were performed in which depressed patients were treated with the serotonin precursors L-Tryptophan and 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP), and the dopamine and norepinephrine precursors Tyrosine and L-Phenylalanine.
A summary published in the Alternative Medicine Revue looked at the data from all these studies. The author noted that the nature of the studies makes it difficult to draw firm conclusions regarding the efficacy of neurotransmitter precursors for treating depression.
While there is evidence that precursor loading could work, particularly for serotonin precursor 5-HTP, more studies of suitable design and size “might lead to more conclusive results”.[xv]
Those studies have not materialized since that report was published 22 years ago.
5-HTP Recommended Dosage
Recommended dosage of 5-HTP if you’re going to try it is 50 mg 1 – 3 times per day.
Some studies have used higher doses than the recommended dose, but 5-HTP can be toxic at high doses.
For anxiety or depression, 5-HTP is dosed at 150 – 300 mg per day total.
To relieve post MDMA (Ecstasy) depression, 5-HTP 100 mg on Day 3-7 after MDMA use.[xvi]
Successfully supplementing with 5-HTP requires stacking it with a dopamine precursor like L-Tyrosine or L-DOPA along with B-Vitamins (for synthesis), and one of the sulfur-containing amino acids (methionine, cysteine, homocysteine, or taurine).
And you must monitor the effects this stack is having on your body. If you start experiencing side effects of any kind, it’s a good indication that either serotonin or dopamine is out of balance.
DO NOT combine 5-HTP with any kind of antidepressant medication.
Combining SSRI’s, Tricyclics or MAOI’s with 5-HTP will cause Serotonin Syndrome. An extremely dangerous condition involving severe mental changes, hot flashes, rapidly fluctuating blood pressure and heart rate, and possibly coma.
Serotonin Syndrome can kill you. And I’m not kidding here.
5-HTP Side Effects
5-HTP supplementation can cause heartburn, heart palpitations, headache, stomach pain, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, drowsiness, sexual problems and muscle issues.
5-HTP can also cause some pretty radical mood changes including agitation, aggressiveness, anxiety, euphoria, poor decision-making, irritability, psychosis, restlessness and insomnia.
5-HTP can make the symptoms of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and other mental disorders worse.
And I can’t emphasize this enough so I’m going to repeat it here in case you missed it…
DO NOT combine 5-HTP with any kind of antidepressant medication. Or with carbidopa.
Combining SSRI’s, Tricyclics or MAOI’s with 5-HTP will cause Serotonin Syndrome. An extremely dangerous condition involving severe mental changes, hot flashes, rapidly fluctuating blood pressure and heart rate, and possibly coma.
And combining 5-HTP with carbidopa also has the potential of causing Serotonin Syndrome.
Serotonin Syndrome can kill you. And I’m not kidding here.
Type of 5-HTP to Buy
5-HTP is made from tryptophan in your body.
5-HTP as a nootropic supplement is made from extracts of the African tree Griffonia simplicifolia. 5-HTP supplements are typically in tablet or capsule form.
You’ll often find 5-HTP in many ready-made vitamin and herbal formulas.
If you are going to stack low-dose 5-HTP with L-Tyrosine I suggest: Natrol 5-HTP Fast Dissolve Tablets. Cut the 100 mg tablet into quarters using a pill splitter and dissolve 25 mg 5-HTP under your tongue (sublingually).
Nootropics Expert Recommendation
5-HTP 50 mg up to 3-times per day
I DO NOT recommend using 5-HTP as a nootropic supplement.
Your body does synthesize 5-HTP on its own to make serotonin in your brain. And you can’t get 5-HTP from food. But you can get L-Tryptophan from food which is synthesized into 5-HTP in your body.
5-HTP may help you if you’re dealing with depression. But you must stack if with a dopamine amino acid precursor along with B-Vitamins and a sulfur-containing amino acid. See the “5-HTP Recommended Dosage” in this review above.
IF you are going to try 5-HTP, I suggest starting with a dose of more than 50 mg daily. You may want to take it in the evening because it could help you sleep.
Short-term dosing of 5-HTP of no more than 2 weeks seems to provide the most benefit if you’re going to benefit from this nootropic.
Or try using 5-HTP only on an “as needed” basis. For a mood boost, improve social anxiety, and provide a short-term boost in cognition.
5-HTP supplementation on its own is NOT recommended. Nor is it recommended for long-term use.
[i] Hinz M., Stein A., Uncini T. “5-HTP efficacy and contraindications.”Neuropsychiatric Disease and Treatment. 2012;8:323-8. (source)
[ii] Turner E.H., Loftis J.M., Blackwell A.D. “Serotonin a la carte: supplementation with the serotonin precursor 5-hydroxytryptophan.”Pharmacology and Therapeutics. 2006 Mar;109(3):325-38. (source)
[iii] Birdsall T.C. “5-Hydroxytryptophan: a clinically-effective serotonin precursor.” Alternative Medicine Revue. 1998 Aug;3(4):271-80. (source)
[iv] Lemaire P.A., Adosraku R.K. “An HPLC method for the direct assay of the serotonin precursor, 5-hydroxytrophan, in seeds of Griffonia simplicifolia.” Phytochemical Analysis. 2002 Nov-Dec;13(6):333-7. (source)
[v] Emanuele E., Bertona M., Minoretti P., Geroldi D. “An open-label trial of L-5-hydroxytryptophan in subjects with romantic stress.” Neuro Endocrinology Letters. 2010;31(5):663-6. (source)
[vi] Hinz M., Stein A., Uncini T. “APRESS: apical regulatory super system, serotonin, and dopamine interaction.” Neuropsychiatric Disease and Treatment. 2011;7:457-63. (source)
[vii] Hinz M., Stein A., Uncini T. “Relative nutritional deficiencies associated with centrally acting monoamines.” International Journal of General Medicine. 2012;5:413-30 (source)
[viii] van Praag H.M. “n search of the mode of action of antidepressants. 5-HTP/tyrosine mixtures in depressions.”Neuropharmacology. 1983 Mar;22(3 Spec No):433-40. (source)
[ix] Hinz M., Stein A., Uncini T. “5-HTP efficacy and contraindications”Neuropsychiatric Disease and Treatment. 2012; 8: 323–328. (source)
[x] Hinz M., Stein A., Uncini T. “APRESS: apical regulatory super system, serotonin, and dopamine interaction.” Neuropsychiatric Disease and Treatment. 2011;7:457-63. (source)
[xi] Hinz M., Stein A., Uncini T. “Amino acid management of Parkinson’s disease: a case study” International Journal of General Medicine. 2011; 4: 165–174. (source)
[xii] Birdsall T.C. “5-Hydroxytryptophan: a clinically-effective serotonin precursor.” Alternative Medicine Revue. 1998 Aug;3(4):271-80. (source)
[xiii] Shaw K., Turner J., Del Mar C. “Are tryptophan and 5-hydroxytryptophan effective treatments for depression? A meta-analysis.” Australia and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry. 2002 Aug;36(4):488-91. (source)
[xiv] Caruso I., Sarzi Puttini P., Cazzola M., Azzolini V. “Double-blind study of 5-hydroxytryptophan versus placebo in the treatment of primary fibromyalgia syndrome.” Journal of International Medical Research. 1990 May-Jun;18(3):201-9. (source)
[xv] Meyers S. “Use of neurotransmitter precursors for treatment of depression.” Alternative Medicine Revue. 2000 Feb;5(1):64-71. (source)
[xvi]Wang X., Baumann M.H., Dersch C.M., Rothman R.B. “Restoration of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine-induced 5-HT depletion by the administration of L-5-hydroxytryptophan.” Neuroscience. 2007 Aug 10;148(1):212-20. (source)
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TYPE: Saying starting with a dose of MORE THAN 50 mg when you must’ve meant “starting with a dose than NO more then 50g. Just FYI, but great info you have on the subject.
exerpt from above:
“IF you are going to try 5-HTP, I suggest starting with a dose of *no*(?)more than 50 mg daily. You may want to take it in the evening because it could help you sleep.”
Robyn, I meant 50 mg. If you tried 50 grams of 5-HTP you are going to suppress dopamine to an all time low. That will backfire on you big time. And any hint of a prescription drug that affects serotonin would mean instant Serotonin Syndrome.
Hey David I brought some 5-HTP to deal with insomnia
now I am NOT on any SSRi or anything only vitamin C and DHA as my main and astaxanthin I get plenty of sunlight in the summer months and supplement with D in the winter
i’m not sure if my serotonin is higher in my brain or low I do not suffer any sort of natural depression rather however I do have insomnia due to visual snow syndrome and I have tried everything from GABA to this and that nothing works it seems to be very randomly selective in its nature too now I have 100MG here of 5-HTP do you think trying this for a short term like 2 weeks or maybe having a 5-HTP on a restless night might be okay? I was thinking of only trying 50MG I do not want to go higher than 100Mg that serotonin syndrome thing you mentioned freaked me out
what i find interesting is my neurological condition has been caused by people who take SSRi or have come off them
ill link you this below
“Visual snow and antidepressants”
do you think it would be safe taking it or trailing it out just at say 50MG just to see how I respond that amount wont do any harm will it!
Thanks
Andrew, I’ll let those who are interested Google “visual snow”. But Serotonin Syndrome is only a problem when combining 5-HTP, L-Tryptophan or St. John’s wort with an SSRI. 5-HTP on its own cannot cause Serotonin Syndrome.
But it is possible to increase serotonin too much and depress dopamine production in your brain. That is very unlikely to happen with a low dose of 5-HTP.
isn’t L-Tryptophan in milk and dairy products I wouldn’t have any clue how much of this I get in my diet alone however I am not supplementing with any L-Tryptophan but i do drink a lot of milk
But i guess my question is do you think 100MG or 50Mg would be safe over a short term
The amount of Tryptophan in food would pale in comparison to what you would get in a capsule or tablet. 50 – 100 mg 5-HTP is a low dose and should not cause any problems short or long term.
Hi David and many thanks for checking this up for me, your deep dive regarding Phosphatidylserine & MOA’s is much appreciated.
Ok, so it may be schizofactors involved in the MOA-B thing with Phosphatidylserine. I feel better now 😉 I haven’t been myself lately. Just kidding.
Anyway, it is kind of interesting that the MOA-B’s was affected within that specific area. But I woulden’t mind a little subtile bump for non schizos too. Good to see that you didn’t found anything about the MOA-A’s.
I’m now onto the Tryptophan as well as the Phosphatidylserine. Yes, the DHA from the Omega-3 has been taken in high doses here since 25 years back or so. Choline from a couple of egg’s each day and some Citicholine added to it. The Phosphatidylserine was much to expensive earlier and while not that cheap today either, I’ve found a sunflower based version at a decent cost.
I’m happy so far with this little but well respected little stack. We can not afford a canabalization carnivale on any of those precious lipid layers at the age of 62, due to not getting enough of them. Do you think cholinesources like those mentioned above would be enough or do you see any benefit from adding also PC as supplement to the stack ?
A different question regarding your earlier suggestion for dopamin bump; NALT can be a migrean trigger (a wellknown fact). L-Tyrosin in the pure basic form, is that also known to have the same reputation for this or is it different?
Again, thanks.
Mac, your neurotransmitters decline with age. Dopamine declines by 10% per decade starting in your early 20’s. By the time you are 62 you naturally have approx. 60% of the dopamine in your brain compare to when you were 21. If you do not supplement with 500 – 1000 mg L-Tyrosine twice per day you will continue to be low in dopamine. Google symptoms of low dopamine to see how that affects your quality of life.
Same with acetylcholine. Yes, PS can contribute to the manufacture of acetylcholine. But the most efficient way to do this is with 300 mg CDP-Choline with 500 mg ALCAR twice per day along with a BioActive B-Complex and you will make more acetylcholine.
David, thanks again for your kind reply. The numbers you give me are telling a clear message for us getting older and try to care for the state of the brain during the time we have left.
The levels are going down for the neuro chemistry and we do have a choice. We could fill ourselves up with everything avaible to compensate the loss. At a certain point, we want to try stripping it down to the important parts as a priostack. It’s difficult, everything hold hands with each other. Still, the wish for a more simplified approach is where I am. But I want to be able to finetune each part.
ALCAR, as you mention, for the last 4 years here (just 500mg once a day), at the moment with a brake even though no cycling is needed. Phosphatidyl is the “new” kid on the block. CDP-choline has been with me 4-5 years but in smaller doses (even with Uridine for period). I’ll probably will up it a bit based on your numbers given for acetylcholine levels in an aging brain. Though, I’ve felt a nice effect from only 100 mg so far, especially in combo with L-theanin 100 mg. No idea why that adds a quick and snappy verbality, a special sharp end 3D vision reminding of ColuR or even more Noop as far as the vision. I’m not joking. It never fails to show up. I’m just greatful for it. So simple.
My goal is to find a way for the dopamin, I understand the basic need to use L-Tyrosin for it. Since NALT triggers migrean, it’s a no go. Probably, L-Tyrosin too. Kind of frustrating.
I’m now looking into trying the L-Phenylalanine as an alternative. If it would make a difference for the headache or not, who knows. Long shot. It still converts to Tyrosin. So would it actually make any difference to get it from a longer chain.. I’ll have to take the risk of going down a day or two.
Also, did found your excellent page on Phenylanine and what it brings more on the train is impressive. I woulden’t mind what you describe on that page. But I can see that you do mentioned migraine on higher doses even with this. Perhaps it might work more gentle than NALT if lucky. A bit like Tryptophan does instead of using 5-HTP.
Thanks for all info. Both on this site as well as your personal responses. Much appreciated.
Hi David,
regarding Tryptophan for bumping up serotonin instead of 5-HTP.
I’m using Phosphatidylserine which is said to function as a MAO inhibitor. The information I’ve found describes this as a specific MAO-B targeting when it comes to Phosphatidylserine. Keeping the dopamin levels up as a result.
Since it doesn’t seems to affect the MAO-A’s, do you still see any risk using L-tryptophan combined with the Phosphatidylserine?
Could it actually be a good combo?
Thanks.
Mac, you need to show me a study re. PS and MAOIs because as far a I know so far, it’s not about acting like an MAOI but instead, health brain cell membranes due to adequate levels of PS and DHA promote dopamine signaling.
A good combination is 500 mg L-Tyrosine twice per day with 300 mg PS in the morning. And 500 mg L-Tryptophan before bed because you need to keep dopamine and serotonin in balance.
Hi again,
some links down here to what I stumbled up on about the Phosphatidylserine and MAO-B.
My thinking out from that short info (and based on my own non deep knowledge), just pointed me at the option to have a delicate and smooth balancing between Serotonin and Dopamin from it in combo with Tryptophan.
[edited for length]
Mac, I haven’t the time to read an essay. Please ask your question in 3 or 4 sentences like the others commenting here.
Sorry for my bad judgement. I was carried away.
If interested, have a look at the links at the bottom of the essay. You asked for a source for Phosphatidylserine affecting MAO-B. There you have it and it seems to bumping the MAO-B’s according to the links.
My main concern is if it also would raise the MOA-A, as I pointed out in my first post. I’m asking you since you might have better sources to check that up from than I have.
If MAO’A’s is affected it would be an extremely bad idea to combine it with Tryptophan as far as I understand the dangers with getting a to high level of serotonin.
I do have experience from 5-htp’s bad sides. So, I’m careful but interested in Tryptophan.
Thanks for listening.
Mac, the title of that abstract is “Phosphatidylserine inhibition of monoamine oxidase in platelets of schizophrenics” I have a couple of problems with that. 1. it looks like it only applies to schizophrenics. And 2. they do not say what dose of PS they used.
I took a deep dive into the research on Phosphatidylserine and the most dangerous thing I could find was getting it from a soy source of lecithin instead of a sunflower source.
Your brain cell membranes “require” Phosphatidylserine, Phosphatidylcholine and DHA. Not enough of any of those 3 and brain cell signaling tanks. Along with short term and working memory, reaction time, and it gets worse from there if carried on long-term.
Does it make sense to take 5-htp when cortisol level is too high?
I have read that cortisol deplete serotonin.
Claes, excess cortisol increases serotonin uptake (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12467107/). So, I suppose increasing its uptake could reduce serotonin levels. I suggest increasing serotonin with L-Tryptophan because it is easier to dose and safer to use long-term compare to 5-HTP.
Thank you. Interesting article.
I will take Tryptophan, and i shall read your article about it, again. But does it need Tyrosine?, for balance in serotonin and dopamine.
It depends on how much you are increasing serotonin. If all you’re doing is increasing it enough to sleep and improve your mood with 500 mg then you likely have nothing to worry about.
I see some sources saying that an egcg is essential for helping 5-htp enter the blood-brain barrier(https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/28489u/5htp_daily_for_an_extended_period_of_time_any/)
Do you agree?
Eric, the key sentence in that discussion is “Taking 5-HTP is messing with your enzyme levels, and will eventually lead to a decrease in dopamine production, since they both use the same final rate-limiting enzyme (aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase).”
5-HTP has no problem crossing the blood-brain barrier. It is long-term use and its effects on dopamine that is the problem.
Hello David,
I have anxiety/depression and I know you don’t recommend 5HTP for anyone with anxiety. Early on I thought 5HTP would be a life saver but was disappointed and used it only for sleep with 500mg Gaba
My question is should I just stop taking it altogether. And if I stop what would you recommend ? I am currently taking Rhodiola 2xper day & for sleep 400mg Mag.Glycinate w/ Theanine w/ Glycine if needed or Mag. Glycinate with 1000mg of Taurine or just starve and take Kava. Thank you!
Sonja, you can safely use L-Tryptophan to increase 5-HTP and serotonin which goes on to assist in the production of melatonin to help you sleep. I use 500 mg L-Tryptophan about 90 minutes before bed and it works great.
The problem for me taking the tryptophan is I must have an empty stomach for it to work and I tend to eat sweets in the evenings. I have found that taking 100mg 5htp w/500 gaba I become sleepy despite of my evening snacking. I take it about an hour after my sweets. I agree, when I do have an empty stomach before bed tryptophan works very well and if don’t have the trypt. capsules I drink 1/2 glass of kefir.
thank you!
Hi David, thanks for the information! I’ve been taking tryptophan for a long time already and have always been happy with it. But recently I’ve heard about eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome caused by tryptophan. What do you know about that? Is there a way of being sure the tryptophan isn’t contaminated? Thanks in advance
Mary, go to this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848710/. And read the paragraph right under “Introduction”. That issue came up when a Japanese company made a batch of Tryptophan in 1989 in a contaminated vat. It has not happened since.
5-HTP has been recommended to me as a supplement to improve dream recall (combined with an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor). I already take B5 & B6 every morning. Can I take 5-HTP regularly, and anything I should watch out for? Do I need to take anything else with 5-HTP?
Daniel, the biggest problem with 5-HTP is if used long-term it typically stops providing the intended benefit. No one has every explained why this happens. But I suspect it likely increases serotonin to the point where it suppresses dopamine. Serotonin and dopamine must be in balance.
And using Vitamin B6 in isolation without also using B9 & B12 increases homocysteine to unhealthy levels. And could result in a heart attack. Better to use a BioActive B-Complex to get the B5 and B6 you want.
Hi David,
I’ve been taking Lions Mane supplements with L-Tyrosine for about 4 months (not always consistently) for brain fog and focus for a high pressure job. I’ve heard that I could be affecting my serotonin levels with this combo, so I was considering taking 5-HTP to balance out. Should I move forward with this, and if so, how should I stack and for how long?
Take 500 mg L-Tryptophan before bed every night to keep serotonin and dopamine in balance.
are you sure this will be enough? since tyrosine is like 5-xtp only from phenylalanine, I wonder if tryptophan helps the body in some other way than the production of 5-xtp, and after serotonin? If not, then taking 5-xtp will be the same as tryptophan but more effective and give the same benefit, but yes, for long-term use is unknown.
Dan, long-term use of 5-HTP does not work according to user reviews and clinical studies. Likely because it disrupts the balance of serotonin and dopamine. Better to use L-Tryptophan long-term.
then eating l-dopa, so there is enough tryptophan to balance the difference due to taking tyrosine? And if you take phenylalanine and tryptophan, will dopamine be depleted? All the same, phenylalanine needs to go through 3 transformations, and tryptophan through 2
Dan, I think you are over thinking this. Use L-Tyrosine 500 mg twice per day and 500 mg L-Tryptophan before bed and you should be fine.
Hello David and thanks.
Is it true you need to take L-tyrosine with 5htp so the dopamine does not get depleted?
If so, please could you advise me when to take both of these nootropics and if I need an empty stomach?
Also, could I dose once a day with each one if I need an empty stomach, as I find it takes quite a few hours for my stomach to empty.
Thank you
Christine, too much serotonin depletes dopamine. And the opposite it true as well. I would not worry if all you using is 100 mg 5-HTP per day. But 500 mg 5-HTP per day would be in excess. In that case you would use 500 mg L-Tyrosine morning and then again at noon to balance dopamine with serotonin.
Are you familiar with the Hinz protocol for treating Parkinson’s? It uses a natural form of l-dopa and amino acids to treat the disease. It claims that carbidopa depletes vitamin B6 – which is needed to produce dopamine – both centrally and peripherally, and that using tyrosine, mucuna pruriens as l-dopa, a sulphur amino acid and B6 is a better way to treat Parkinson’s than traditional levodopa/carbidopa. What are your feelings about this, if any?
Daniel, I am not familiar with that protocol but we have many in our community who are dealing with Parkinson’s naturally. They are using natural L-DOPA extracted from Mucuna Pruriens instead of levodopa/carbidopa.
For my depression/dysthymia i want to try 5-HTP.But i use a small dosage of anti-epileptic, Lamotrigin. Lamotrigin is also an antidepressant, and in my case it isn’t used on/for serotonin, it ‘works’ on a different part of the brain. Is it save to use or can this combination even lead to Serotonin Syndrome?
Thanks.
Ed, this is a fairly complete list of drug and supplement contraindications for Lamotrigine: https://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/lamotrigine-index.html
thank goodness for your knowledge on this and thank you for sharing it, I had just ordered 5-htp from amazon and then I read all the HORRIBLE comments and what happened to people and how sick they got when taking it. I cancelled the order after reading this. It takes a lot of research and you deff should not just put something in your body based on some peoples good experiences.
Good afternoon. It would be very helpful if you could indicate a reliable commercial product available on the European market, combining 5-HTP with the rest of the elements indicated in your article (a dopamine precursor like L-Tyrosine or L-DOPA along with B-Vitamins (for synthesis), and one of the sulfur-containing amino acids (methionine, cysteine, homocysteine, or taurine)). Thank you in advance for your time and support.
Georgiana, the only European companies I’m familiar with are Mind Lab Pro and Performance Lab. And they produce the best products on the market period. But they do not produce anything containing 5-HTP. They do have a product called Performance Lab Sleep which contains L-Tryptophan which is a precursor to the synthesis of 5-HTP.
They also produce a product called PL-Immune which contains Sertria Glutathione of which cysteine is a precursor.
Thank you, David, for the prompt reply. If my understanding is correct (please correct me) from what I’ve read in your articles, the most helpful for mild depression (with all its associated symptoms, especially the ability to feel anything) is 5HTP/L-Tryptophan (~800 mg/day/taken in the evening) combined with L-Tyrosine (100 mg/day/during the day) + vitamins B + PL-Immune (or similar) taken during the day? thank you again for your support.
Georgiana, if your mild depression is due to neurotransmitter dysfunction you first need to figure out which one is causing the problem. If it is something other than serotonin 5-HTP or L-Tryptophan will not help. And if it is something other than dopamine or norepinephrine then L-Tyrosine will not help.
But if it is because of serotonin then 500 mg L-Tryptophan before bed may help. And if it’s dopamine and/or norepinephrine you ill need a minimum of 500 mg L-Tyrosine twice per day – morning and noon.
A deficiency in any of the B-Vitamins can also contribute to depression for a variety of reasons. When supplementing with the B-Vitamins it’s better to use a bioactive B-Complex than individual B-Vitamins because they work in synergy.
Finally, if inflammation is the cause then boosting your immune system to fight it should help. That’s where Glutathione comes in as well the the B-Vitamins.
how do you figure out which neurotransmitter is causing issues?
Brad, by testing each neurotransmitter using precursors one-at-a-time as described in this article: https://nootropicsexpert.com/best-nootropics-for-anxiety/
Hi David,
Could using an SSRI + L-Dopa potentially be more or at least equally effective in increasing and balancing serotonin & dopamine than 5-HTP/Tryptophan + Tyrosine (or other dopamine precursors)?
Also, I assume using Tryptophan depletes dopamine in a similar way to 5-HTP, correct?
Christian, if the dose of either Tryptophan or 5-HTP is high enough it will deplete dopamine.
But if you are using SSRIs the last thing you want to do is add Tryptophan or 5-HTP because you will end up with Serotonin Syndrome and possibly dead.
But using an SSRI is not doing to increase serotonin. They are serotonin reuptake inhibitors. The only way to increase physical levels of serotonin is with Tryptophan or 5-HTP.
Thanks for the reply. If SSRIs don’t increase serotonin, does that mean that they don’t suppress dopamine? I suppose that would make sense since it doesn’t involve synthesis. I thought I had read that anhedonia and sexual disfunction from SSRIs was caused by dopamine suppression but I could be misremembering.
Christian, you are correct. SSRI problems with Sexual dysfunction don’t have anything to do with dopamine. Not directly at least. Serotonin transmission is involved in ejaculation for example. And erections are dependent on a ton of pathways and receptors between your brain and your penis including epinephrine and norepinephrine receptors.
And anhedonia is treated with Ketamine which is a NMDA receptor antagonist. Which is a glutamate receptor.
Hello David,
I’m taking 100mg 5-HTP and 500mg of GABA daily before I go to sleep for insomnia. I’m also dealing with anxiety and depression. Is this a good combo to be taking or should I stack any other supplements with it?
Thanks for what you do! 🙂
Pablo, those are good doses for those two supplements. But if it’s not enough I suggest adding 400 mg magnesium, 500 mg L-Tryptophan, 200 mg Lemon Balm, and 400 mg L-Theanine before bed.
David, Can you recommend a product that has all those supplements in one capsule?
Pablo, you will get some of them in Performance Lab Sleep but not GABA or 5-HTP: https://bit.ly/35cx80b
David, I purchased the supplements separated before looking at your response but I will try that Performance lab supplement in the future.
I will take this stack starting tonight which is 400mg magnesium, 500 mg L-Tryptophan, 200 mg Lemon Balm, 400 mg L-Theanine, and 500mg of GABA before bed. I do not feel depressed anymore so I will stop using 5-HTP since I read that you don’t recommend using it for more that two weeks. Thanks!
Hi David,
I have a son with ADHD, who is 10. He is currently on a very low dose of Adderal but it seems to only work sometimes and wears off too soon. His temper flairs at the drop of a hat even while on it and is incredibly moody, anxious at bedtime, not falling asleep some nights and is really negative. I am wondering about any info regarding 5-HTP and Tyrosine, Tryptophan for kids. I am currently taking Tyrosine and Tryptophan along with several others supplements to heal a myriad of things and I also have ADHD. They are helping so much. So gratefyul for my FMD, but testing and visits are so so expensive. Is there any info you could share about transitioning kids with ADHD (possibly ODD) to a supplement instead of the stimulant? Getting him tested is next but looking for anything to help in the meantime!
Sierra, see this section I included on kids with ADHD here: https://nootropicsexpert.com/best-nootropics-for-adhd-add/#nootropics-for-kids
It would seem to me that the same supplements you use for your ADHD would work. You just may need a lower dose of each.